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	<title>Comments on: The Measurement Debate Continues</title>
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	<description>We help people and organizations make their communications more effective and measure the results.</description>
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		<title>By: Michael Clendenin</title>
		<link>http://www.communicationammo.com/meas/the-measurement-debate-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-409</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Clendenin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:28:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.communicationammo.com/?p=293#comment-409</guid>
		<description>True enough, Sean.  And the only way to prove out the impact on sales is in post-campaign measurement that can be costly and time consuming -- sometimes consuming as much time and money as the &quot;campaign&quot; itself.  Still, fight the good fight we must.  Look for less expensive ways to survey for the impact and influence of the communications efforts with the various audiences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True enough, Sean.  And the only way to prove out the impact on sales is in post-campaign measurement that can be costly and time consuming &#8212; sometimes consuming as much time and money as the &#8220;campaign&#8221; itself.  Still, fight the good fight we must.  Look for less expensive ways to survey for the impact and influence of the communications efforts with the various audiences.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.communicationammo.com/meas/the-measurement-debate-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-408</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:24:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.communicationammo.com/?p=293#comment-408</guid>
		<description>Michael, thanks for your comment, which cuts to the crux of the matter. 

AVE definitely needs to go, and has for a long time. The impact on revenue or cost -- the actual impact of PR activities on the business -- is a quantitative nightmare owing to the relative impact of other factors on those metrics. PR people have been much more comfortable with output metrics such as AVE because execs understand advertising. They learn it in business schools, see it with their own eyes and grasp its impact. They have no such exposure to public relations aside from the &quot;marketing communications,&quot; &quot;publicity&quot; angle. 

Even if we posit that all our various communication activities are, in the end, geared toward selling more and spending less, isolating our piece of that puzzle is expensive, complex and difficult. We shape perceptions among a variety of audiences that aren&#039;t customers -- that&#039;s one of the most critical differences between PR and marketing. 

The extent to which each of those audiences (really, publics) is valued at the executive level determines whether we&#039;ll be funded beyond the most basic of our capabilities (reactive, defensive).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, thanks for your comment, which cuts to the crux of the matter. </p>
<p>AVE definitely needs to go, and has for a long time. The impact on revenue or cost &#8212; the actual impact of PR activities on the business &#8212; is a quantitative nightmare owing to the relative impact of other factors on those metrics. PR people have been much more comfortable with output metrics such as AVE because execs understand advertising. They learn it in business schools, see it with their own eyes and grasp its impact. They have no such exposure to public relations aside from the &#8220;marketing communications,&#8221; &#8220;publicity&#8221; angle. </p>
<p>Even if we posit that all our various communication activities are, in the end, geared toward selling more and spending less, isolating our piece of that puzzle is expensive, complex and difficult. We shape perceptions among a variety of audiences that aren&#8217;t customers &#8212; that&#8217;s one of the most critical differences between PR and marketing. </p>
<p>The extent to which each of those audiences (really, publics) is valued at the executive level determines whether we&#8217;ll be funded beyond the most basic of our capabilities (reactive, defensive).</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Clendenin</title>
		<link>http://www.communicationammo.com/meas/the-measurement-debate-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-407</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Clendenin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:48:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.communicationammo.com/?p=293#comment-407</guid>
		<description>&quot;...My personal belief is that AVEs are bad science, but I’m also sensitive to the need to help clients. AVE is easy for a client to grasp — &#039;if we paid for the space our story ran in, it would have cost us X.&#039;...&quot; 

But what&#039;s easier to grasp than &quot;we sold more widgets because they read about our product in X publication/website/etc.&quot;?  It&#039;s all about making sure you are clear about the desired end result. You can throw the AVE in as additional metrics, but emphasize the end business goal being advanced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;My personal belief is that AVEs are bad science, but I’m also sensitive to the need to help clients. AVE is easy for a client to grasp — &#8216;if we paid for the space our story ran in, it would have cost us X.&#8217;&#8230;&#8221; </p>
<p>But what&#8217;s easier to grasp than &#8220;we sold more widgets because they read about our product in X publication/website/etc.&#8221;?  It&#8217;s all about making sure you are clear about the desired end result. You can throw the AVE in as additional metrics, but emphasize the end business goal being advanced.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://www.communicationammo.com/meas/the-measurement-debate-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-400</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:56:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.communicationammo.com/?p=293#comment-400</guid>
		<description>Katie, sorry to be tardy in reply! Thanks for the support. 

I am still a bit conflicted on the AVE topic, in that there are some forms of editorial that for all purposes are similar to advertising. The example I use is a 2.5 column story on a new tire that appears in Road and Track -- it&#039;s functionally about the features, benefits and performance of the tire, and in the specific case, it was highly complimentary, with not a negative word in the whole thing. Most of the two columns was taken up by a photo from our staff shooter of the tire itself, showing the name, the unique tread design, etc., and was quite a beauty shot. The photog noted that two pages later, there was an ad for that tire, called the media buyer and determined how much the company had spent on the ad, sized accordingly, and came up with a dollar figure for how much the equivalent space would have cost, net of his time to shoot and edit the photo. His internal client had asked for it.

Was that wrong? Bad science? I don&#039;t know, it seemed quite reasonable at the time.

So, are there instances (product publicity, e.g.) where this method would be valuable?

Gack, I&#039;m violating my own rules!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Katie, sorry to be tardy in reply! Thanks for the support. </p>
<p>I am still a bit conflicted on the AVE topic, in that there are some forms of editorial that for all purposes are similar to advertising. The example I use is a 2.5 column story on a new tire that appears in Road and Track &#8212; it&#8217;s functionally about the features, benefits and performance of the tire, and in the specific case, it was highly complimentary, with not a negative word in the whole thing. Most of the two columns was taken up by a photo from our staff shooter of the tire itself, showing the name, the unique tread design, etc., and was quite a beauty shot. The photog noted that two pages later, there was an ad for that tire, called the media buyer and determined how much the company had spent on the ad, sized accordingly, and came up with a dollar figure for how much the equivalent space would have cost, net of his time to shoot and edit the photo. His internal client had asked for it.</p>
<p>Was that wrong? Bad science? I don&#8217;t know, it seemed quite reasonable at the time.</p>
<p>So, are there instances (product publicity, e.g.) where this method would be valuable?</p>
<p>Gack, I&#8217;m violating my own rules!</p>
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		<title>By: Katie Delahaye Paine</title>
		<link>http://www.communicationammo.com/meas/the-measurement-debate-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-399</link>
		<dc:creator>Katie Delahaye Paine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 12:35:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.communicationammo.com/?p=293#comment-399</guid>
		<description>Great post Sean. And I agree wholeheartedly, lets stop writing about the AVE debate and start writing about all the great organizations that are measuring outcomes and doing really valuable useful measurement. Anyone wonder why the companies that do measure the right stuff always end up on Fortune&#039;s Most Admired and Best Places to work list?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post Sean. And I agree wholeheartedly, lets stop writing about the AVE debate and start writing about all the great organizations that are measuring outcomes and doing really valuable useful measurement. Anyone wonder why the companies that do measure the right stuff always end up on Fortune&#8217;s Most Admired and Best Places to work list?</p>
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		<title>By: Of Cabbages and Kings and Measuring PR &#124; Waxing UnLyrical</title>
		<link>http://www.communicationammo.com/meas/the-measurement-debate-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-396</link>
		<dc:creator>Of Cabbages and Kings and Measuring PR &#124; Waxing UnLyrical</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 11:04:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.communicationammo.com/?p=293#comment-396</guid>
		<description>[...] this recap isn&#8217;t (just) about me. So in that vein, here&#8217;s Sean Williams&#8217; recap, which also looks at the AVE debate (or paroxysm, as he calls it). Below are some of the highlights [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] this recap isn&#8217;t (just) about me. So in that vein, here&#8217;s Sean Williams&#8217; recap, which also looks at the AVE debate (or paroxysm, as he calls it). Below are some of the highlights [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://www.communicationammo.com/meas/the-measurement-debate-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-394</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 22:05:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.communicationammo.com/?p=293#comment-394</guid>
		<description>Tim - thanks so much for your thoughtful comment. I couldn&#039;t agree more about the embrace of multiple metrics. My main point was the he said she said nature of the AVE discussion -- the media monitors and agencies on one side, the media revolutionaries on the other, each hurling rocks. I get it and agree that AVEs aren&#039;t good science, but clients can only be led so far before we jeopardize the relationships. Hence, I&#039;m  hopeful that some kind of relatively easy-to-calc, easy-to-understand dollar-based metric emerges, and soon, please!

Thanks again for stopping by!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim &#8211; thanks so much for your thoughtful comment. I couldn&#8217;t agree more about the embrace of multiple metrics. My main point was the he said she said nature of the AVE discussion &#8212; the media monitors and agencies on one side, the media revolutionaries on the other, each hurling rocks. I get it and agree that AVEs aren&#8217;t good science, but clients can only be led so far before we jeopardize the relationships. Hence, I&#8217;m  hopeful that some kind of relatively easy-to-calc, easy-to-understand dollar-based metric emerges, and soon, please!</p>
<p>Thanks again for stopping by!</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Marklein</title>
		<link>http://www.communicationammo.com/meas/the-measurement-debate-continues/comment-page-1/#comment-393</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Marklein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 21:55:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.communicationammo.com/?p=293#comment-393</guid>
		<description>Good post, Sean. As part of both the IPR and AMEC efforts on this, I&#039;m actively engaged in helping us &quot;move on&quot; as an industry.

With that said, I actually believe this is an important inflection point for public relations measurement. Not just due to the post-AVE transition, but also the embrace of digital and social media metrics, the renewed inspection of long-held advertising and audience impression metrics, and the renewed focus on integrated measurement across disciplines.

Instead of skipping past this debate, I say let&#039;s get deep into it and use it as an inflection point to end up somewhere better. Too many PR people know too little about the valuable measurement techniques that have emerged over the past decade. If the &quot;end of AVEs&quot; becomes a forcing function for people to learn about other measurement options, I say let&#039;s embrace the debate -- and use it to educate and elevate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post, Sean. As part of both the IPR and AMEC efforts on this, I&#8217;m actively engaged in helping us &#8220;move on&#8221; as an industry.</p>
<p>With that said, I actually believe this is an important inflection point for public relations measurement. Not just due to the post-AVE transition, but also the embrace of digital and social media metrics, the renewed inspection of long-held advertising and audience impression metrics, and the renewed focus on integrated measurement across disciplines.</p>
<p>Instead of skipping past this debate, I say let&#8217;s get deep into it and use it as an inflection point to end up somewhere better. Too many PR people know too little about the valuable measurement techniques that have emerged over the past decade. If the &#8220;end of AVEs&#8221; becomes a forcing function for people to learn about other measurement options, I say let&#8217;s embrace the debate &#8212; and use it to educate and elevate.</p>
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